ANSWERED on Tue 19 May 2009 - 1:54 am UTC by byrd
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Asked by probo on Fri 15 May 2009 - 4:33 am UTC:
As you know from THX1138's Comment on my previous Question (#2950), it has been suggested that the bath fittings from Hilldrop Crescent (Crippen's house) are in the 'Black Museum' which, as yet, is not open to the public. 'Could it be', THX1138 postulates, 'that he used acid in the bath tub to dispose of the bones, etc?' Certainly, this is another interesting hypothesis. Could you now please subject this to your most rigorous scrutiny? DISCLAIMER: Please do not take this as an invitation to perform any tests whatsoever on whosoever you may stumble upon in Skid Row. Thanks! Bryan
Question clarification by probo on Fri 15 May 2009 - 4:40 am UTC:
It occurs to me that the 'Brides in the Bath' murderer might provide some pointers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Joseph_Smith Indeed, there may be examples on record of acid actually having been used for this purpose. Bryan
Question clarification by probo on Fri 15 May 2009 - 11:23 am UTC:
One of my friends has kindly referred me to a GA question which is very relevant: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/717344.html I'd completely forgotten - even though I made a Comment! Anyway, I have now ordered the book quoted. Could you now please direct your answer to investigating if there were any other relevant cases, ideally pre-dating 1910? Bryan
Comment by probo on Fri 15 May 2009 - 3:35 pm UTC:
Congratulations, Myo, you've just Hit the Jackpot! He did run out of acid which is why he failed to finish the job. And, having disposed of all the potentially identifiable parts (fingerprints, skull, genitals, etc.) he then figured that he could safely bury the remaining bits in his cellar, Naturally, he couldn't possibly risk buying any more acid after the event. Now, if you would please send me £50, I will advise you of your winnings on the Jackpot. I promise that it will be a surprise! Bryo
Comment by User myoarin on Fri 15 May 2009 - 5:14 pm UTC:
Hi Admin, Please check out the poster of the previous comment; it looks like blatant scam. Myo
Comment by probo on Fri 15 May 2009 - 6:06 pm UTC:
Oh dear, Myo, you are such a big disappointment to me. Don't you want a surprise? Bryo
Comment by User myoarin on Fri 15 May 2009 - 8:16 pm UTC:
Fifty pounds ain't what it used to be, but I'll retract that about a scam
and contritely propose two goldmine ideas for pay-by-click links on the
Crippen website:
"How to let your wife disappear without a trace"
- "if you don't have big mustache, how to maintain a stiff upper lip"
(worth an expensive extra click):
"Things to watch out for if your husband is henpecked."
(No add-on clicks for the ladies, since none of them would consider their
husbands to be henpicked, well, maybe one - no two - for both sides:
"How to recognize if your husband is henpicked";
"How to recognize henpicking and henpickers."
On the latter: a differently worded advert for a link back to the
instructions for a disappearing act.
Myo
Comment by probo on Fri 15 May 2009 - 8:38 pm UTC:
Wow, Myo, Very Many Thanks! You know, with your Money and my Brains we should do really well: a partnership made in Heaven! Cin cin Bryo
Request for clarification by Researcher byrd on Fri 15 May 2009 - 9:59 pm UTC:
Dear Bryan, Thank you so much for requesting my assistance on this matter. It looks most fascinating and I'd be ery pleased to dig into the details and possibilities of bathtub corpse dissolution solutions. However, I should let you know I will be unable to work on the question for the next couple of days due to other previous commitments. Sunday is probably the earliest I'd be able to get at it. If that's a problem, you might want to open the question up to other Researchers. Just wanted to let you know. I will, of course, in any case, take your caution to heart, and refrain from any actual experimentation. Best regards, Byrd
Question clarification by probo on Sat 16 May 2009 - 3:30 am UTC:
Very many thanks, Byrd, there's no rush providing, of course, that my Question doesn't expire. But, even then, I could always renew if you should require further time. A good friend of mine has now pointed out that in the scandalous 'The Picture of Dorian Gray' (1891) - Oscar Wilde's only novel - the protagonist used this method to dispose of a body. All the Best Bryan
Comment by User myoarin on Sat 16 May 2009 - 12:48 pm UTC:
Hi Bryan, But Dorian's friend was a chemist, and Wilde probably just assumed that it was a neat solution. About money and brains: it could be that you are assuming too much of each - maybe just a partnership in this or the nether world. Cheers, Myo
Answer by Researcher byrd on Tue 19 May 2009 - 1:54 am UTC:
Dear Bryan, Many thanks for your patience and understanding regarding my time conflict and resultant delay in answering your question. You will be interested to know that this particular hypothesis, i.e. that Dr. Crippen might have used acid in the bathtub to dispose of his wife's body, is definitely within the realm of possibility. As a matter of fact there is precedent in the use of acid to dispose of a dead body. I refer primarily to the case mentioned to in the GA question you provided a link to in your previous comment, also referred to by Myoarin in his comment. This, of course, is the well-known case of John George Haigh, a famous 20th-century British serial murderer who disposed of the bodies of his victims by dissolving them in sulfuric acid. According to Wikipedia, "He was convicted of the murders of six people, although he claimed to have killed a total of nine, dissolving their bodies in concentrated sulphuric acid." The case is referred to as "The Acid Bath Murders." However, Haigh was convicted partly based on forensic evidence which included a few fragments of bone and some gallstones that had not dissolved. Perhaps they might have, had they been left in the acid a little longer. The body of the woman which led to his arrest and ultimate conviction was left in the acid for two days as noted. Maybe three days would have done it. I was unable to locate any precise instructions as to exact length of time to soak a body, but I would think another day or two might have taken care of those undissolved bits. In addition to the undissolved biological remnants found by the police, the unfortunate woman's dentures also remained, so anyone implementing this method of disposal would need to be aware of and be sure to remove any non- or potentially non-dissoluble elements. However, presumably a doctor, with a scientific education and, in the case of Dr. Crippen, pharmaceutical experience as well, would have been aware of the chemical properties of acid, particularly one so well-known as sulfuric, even though not with the level of detail which we in the 21st century posess. Here is a very complete account of Haigh's murderous activities, including descriptions of his early experiments on small rodents, as well as details of what did and did not dissolve in the acid: http://mypchem.com/myp8/myp8c/myp8c_htm/U2_a&b/acid_bath.htm The body of another more recent murder victim was also allegedly disposed of by being dissolved in acid, though this one was never proved. Still, it's interesting to read the news saying that the alleged perpetrator, Charles Carneglia, a U.S. gangster associated with mob boss John Gotti, had told someone else about it, saying that acid was "the best method to avoid detection." http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,478124,00.html Another, even more recent case, involves the confession of Santiago Meza Lopez, an associate of a Mexican drug lord, who confessed in January of this year to disposing of up to 300 bodies over several years by dissolving them in barrels of acid. However, in this case, they were apparently in a hurry and so did not let the bodies completely dissolve as Meza said he also buried the remains. See the news report, here: http://tinyurl.com/pazout -------------------------------------------------------------------------- In addition to the question of time required for complete dissolution, there is also the matter of volume of acid required. Clearly the body would have to be submerged in the acid for it to dissolve. So the question seems to be how much the bathtub could hold less the displaced volume of the body. An average bathtub can hold anywhere from 150-200 litres (about 39-52 gallons) of water. Dr. Crippen's wife's weight of 170 lbs. ( http://uclue.com/?xq=2950 ) would be in volume approximately equivalent to 77 fluid litres (20 gallons). So, with the entire body in the bath, it would take approximately 73-123 litres (19-32 gallons) of sulfuric acid to fill the tub to the top. However, the could have been quite dangerous to the Doctor and the floor, so I'd subtract some to bring the level down below the rim. Of course, if parts of the body were missing already, having been disposed of some other way, correspondingly less volume of acid would be required to submerge the remaining parts. http://www.essentialbathrooms.co.uk/?search=baths http://www.bathroomheaven.com/sp_showitem/2469 http://www.calculateme.com/Volume/Liters/ToGallons.htm http://www.convert-me.com/en/convert/weight2volume Regarding the question of availability, Haigh bought his acid in 10-gallon carboys, which are large, narrow-necked glass bottles. Three full ones and one empty were discovered in his residence during the police investigation, so apparently there was no problem, at least at that time, in obtaining large containers of acid. I would think a doctor would have no difficulty in locating sources, and also might be more rather than less likely than the average citizen to be able to make such a purchase openly. The fact that he worked for a pharmaceutical company would lend even greater credence to his ability to obtain chemicals of various sorts. http://www.bottlebooks.com/demijohn/big_bottles_big_history_demijohn.htm http://www.weekendbrewer.com/carboysfermenters.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Which acid would have been best for such purpose? Ordinary sulfuric acid (H2SO4) which is what Haigh used, would have done the job and would also have been available at the time Dr. Crippen may have had need of it. The other so-called "strong acids" include HCl - hydrochloric acid (HCl), hydrobromic acid (HBr), hydroiodic acid (HI), perchloric acid (HClO4), and nitric acid (HNO3). Dorian Gray used nitric acid, which is plausible also given its presence on this list of strongest acids. http://chemistry.about.com/od/acidsbases/a/strengthacids.htm Guidelines for handling sulfuric acid from Stanford University say that it will attack the enamel of the teeth, further support for its use for the purpose under discussion. In fact, the International Chemical Safety Card for this says there is "Risk of tooth erosion upon repeated or prolonged exposure to an aerosol of this substance." Clearly the Doctor would have had to cover his nose and mouth while filling/unfilling the tub had he chosen this method of disposal. http://tinyurl.com/pasat2 http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ipcsneng/neng0362.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just for interest's sake, I'll mention that another substance possibly useful for the purpose at hand could have been lye, a base, on the opposite end of the PH scale from acid. Lye, or sodium hydroxide (NaOH) has been used in the past to dispose of roadkill or dead farm animals. According to Wikipedia, "This process involves the placing of a carcass into a sealed chamber, which then puts the carcass in a mixture of sodium hydroxide and water, which breaks chemical bonds keeping the body intact. This eventually turns the body into a coffee-like liquid, and the only solid that remains are bone hulls, which could be crushed between one's fingertips." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hydroxide Apparently some murderers have also used lye to aid in the disposal of their victims' bodies. One such was Belle Gunness who, with her lover, was accused of murdering over fifty people in Indiana in the 19th century. Investigators found dismembered bodies "wrapped in gunny sacks doused with lye." Of course, these were not completely dissolved but might have been had she used proper technique. Lye also, of course, would have been readily available in Dr. Crippen's day, perhaps even more so than acid. Just as an interesting aside, alkaline hydrolysis, or the dissolving of tissue using a strong base such as lye, is being proposed currently as an alternative method of disposal of organic remains, including human remains. Because the process involves high heat and pressure, this would not have been possible for Dr. Crippen, but thought you'd like to read about it anyway: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24526431/ Here is more technical information about the process: http://www.alnmag.com/articles.asp?pid=76 The commercial kind of alkaline hydrolysis has been named, "Resomation." Here's a site you can visit for more information: http://www.resomation.com/ And here's an interesting article about other practical uses for alkaline hydrolysis: http://tinyurl.com/rd5qcl ------------------------------------------------------------------------- In conclusion, I would reiterate that the dissolution of the body, or part of the body, in a bathtub using acid is a relatively plausible hypothesis for explaining how Dr. Crippen may have disposed of his deceased wife's body, or parts thereof so that some parts of her were never found. I hope you will find the information helpful. If you require additional assistance, please do Request a Clarification and I will be happy to respond. Best regards, Byrd
Comment by Researcher byrd on Tue 19 May 2009 - 12:43 pm UTC:
Bryan, You're very welcome. I'm glad you were pleased. And many thanks in turn for your patience, kind words and tip! WD40? Well I'm not sure what effect it might have on stars or limitations thereof, but I do think the good doctor may have found it useful had it been available to him. For what I'm not exactly sure, but of course duct tape and WD40 are about all one needs to accomplish any job, as I see you already know. Very best wishes, Byrd
Comment by Researcher richard on Thu 21 May 2009 - 7:39 pm UTC:
Bryan Another DNA case! http://special.news.msu.edu/crippen/ and with it a neat link to a 1910 Murder Casebook http://special.news.msu.edu/crippen/crippen_murder_casebook.pdf
Comment by probo on Thu 21 May 2009 - 7:45 pm UTC:
Very many thanks, Richard, but both Links 'appear to be broken'. I'll try again tomorrow! bryan
Comment by Researcher davidsarokin on Thu 21 May 2009 - 7:47 pm UTC:
An alternative link to the casebook, as the above wasn't working for me: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/downloads/crippen_murder_casebook.pdf
Comment by Researcher richard on Thu 21 May 2009 - 7:59 pm UTC:
Odd since they work for me. Google cache: http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:TkwsKAzKlx8J:special.news.msu.edu/crippen/+http://special.news.msu.edu/crippen/&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Comment by probo on Thu 21 May 2009 - 8:12 pm UTC:
Many Thanks, David & Richard Now, I've connected. Funnily enough, I ordered the Crippen Murder Casebook two days ago. It should arrive tomorrow! Bryan
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Comment by User myoarin on Fri 15 May 2009 - 2:44 pm UTC: