ANSWERED on Tue 1 Dec 2009 - 11:34 am UTC by czh
Question: bathroom stalls
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Asked by whitecloudminnow on Sun 29 Nov 2009 - 11:22 pm UTC:
Hi, this is a serious question. Why are US bathroom stalls the way they are, very small, with flimsy half-height walls and doors? It can't be only that it's cheap, because even posh hotels with terry towels and fresh flowers often have these silly stalls. In Europe, most bathroom are little rooms with full-height doors that lock well, and solid walls. Is there a law that says bathrooms have to be this way? Or has no US architect ever realized this isn't the only option? I can't figure it out.
Comment by User myoarin on Mon 30 Nov 2009 - 11:50 am UTC:
I think Chides90 has the right idea, but it is also easier to clean the floor if the side panels and doors don't go down to the floor. I live in Europe and believe all the modern men's rooms I know are built on the same pattern as the US ones. Another factor is that the stalls are cheaper and easier to install: more or less standard panels and doors, independent of the construction of the the floor and walls.
Request for clarification by Researcher davidsarokin on Mon 30 Nov 2009 - 1:18 pm UTC:
From the research I've done on your question, I can tell you this much: industry design standards in the US call for the sort of doors you describe, with room above and below the door itself. The standards are not readily available online, so I can't check to see if they provide a rationale for the design. One can speculate, though. One possibility is air circulation...a completely enclosed mini-room would need a separate venting system, whereas a relatively open stall can rely on general air replacement systems of the room as a whole...a much less expensive alternative. But I would guess that a larger factor has to do with what might be called social order. The partial-door so common in US stalls allows a bit of visibility into the stall itself, without unduly sacrificing privacy. This means an observer can readily tell how many people are in the stall, and get some idea of the type of activity going on. Given the propensity for folks to use public bathroom stalls for a variety of illicit activities, the current US design provides some degree of security. Perhaps this reflects a difference between US and European behaviors and values, but that's hard to say. When I was a youth, our local library experienced a rash of illicit behaviors in their public washroom facilities. When I went to use them one day, I discovered (much to my dismay) that the library had removed the stall doors entirely. Seems that general security trumped individual privacy, at least in this particular case. This isn't meant as an answer to your question, but I hope it provides a bit of insight.
Answer by Researcher czh on Tue 1 Dec 2009 - 11:34 am UTC:
Hello whitecloudminnow, The design of public bathrooms and the lack of privacy offered by inadequate stall partitions is a recognized problem that has been addressed in books, scholarly papers and international conferences. The concept of "privacy" varies greatly depending on a country’s or region’s culture. How much privacy you can expect in a public bathroom depends on the culture of the locale. You have singled out the difference in toilet privacy expectations between Europe and the United States but differences exist worldwide. I found some interesting resources that review the history of public toilets which cover privacy issues. I’ve also located some organizations that are dedicated to improving the design of public restrooms that offer a wealth of resources on the subject. There are a variety of Federal, State and Local laws and regulations on the design of bathrooms. I was not able to find anything that specifies the height of stall partitions. I include a very detailed specification document to give you an idea of how public bathrooms designed and equipped. Cost and ease of cleaning are also contributing factors to public restroom design. Floor to ceiling partitions or discrete rooms for individual toilets are much more expensive than the common row of stalls with low partitions. Cleaning an open floor is much easier than cleaning multiple enclosed spaces. I was somewhat surprised that concern about illegal activities in bathrooms may also be a factor in public restroom design. I found several high profile legal cases on what privacy rights one may expect in a public restroom. I trust that this information meets your needs. Please don’t hesitate to ask for clarification if you need anything else. All the best. Clara aka ~ czh ~ ---------------------- PUBLIC RESTROOM DESIGN ---------------------- http://www.paruresis.org/index.htm International Paruresis Association A resource for people who find it difficult or impossible to urinate in the presence of others, either in their own home or in public facilities. Also, for people who have difficulty under the stress of time pressure,when being observed, when others are close by and might hear them, or when traveling on moving vehicles. --- http://www.paruresis.org/white1.htm The Implications of Poor Restroom Design --- http://www.paruresis.org/evolution.htm The Evolution of the Bathroom and the Implications for Paruresis The whole idea of "privacy in using the toilet is a very modern concept, with its origins in the 1800s.17 It is important to remember that the notion of "personal privacy" has evolved over the last couple of hundred years, and is directly tied to both economic prosperity and religious notions. As one observer has aptly stated: "One obviously has to have the conditions that permit modesty before a society can make modesty into an operable virtue."18 "Privacy-for" is one of the guiding principles of home bathroom design. ... Interestingly, there is much variation in this regard from culture to culture, especially in the area of visual protection. For example, European water closets are completely enclosed, affording maximum privacy to their temporary guests. In the United States, the standard design for stalls is sides and a door that start one foot above the floor and extend only 5 feet in total height. 44 While Europeans, in general, detest U.S. public restroom designs, many people from the U.S. traveling abroad, especially paruretics, are delighted with European standards and consider them more "civilized." === http://www.amazon.com/Inclusive-Urban-Design-Public-Toilets/dp/075065385X Inclusive urban design: public toilets By Clara Greed --- http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/172964523 (Locate a copy of this book at a library near you.) --- http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=su%3APublic+toilets+Planning.&qt=hot_subject Search results for 'su:Public toilets Planning.' (Results 1-10 of about 16) (Locate additional books on the topic of "public toilets") === http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3922/is_199908/ai_n8870961/?tag=content;col1 Restroom design challenges Corporate headquarters buildings, luxury hotels, pricey restaurants, elegant theaters facility executives at these types of facilities live by one rule: Image is everything. People who work in and visit these facilities expect the best, and facility executives are charged with creating an atmosphere that conveys a sense of elegance and makes guests and employees feel comfortable. Carrying that image into public restrooms is essential. "Privacy is very important," says Brennan. "In fact, we may opt to use individual privacy stalls rather than partitions in some situations. It's just one more thing that helps users feel comfortable." === http://www.lawa.org/uploadedfiles/lax/pdf/LAWA%20Public%20Restroom%20Design%20Guidelines-Specifications%20%28All%20Airports%29.pdf LAWA (Los Angeles World Airports) Public Restroom Design Guidelines & Specifications (2008) (Example of detailed specifications for public restrooms.) === http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=9790 Regulations (Standards - 29 CFR) Sanitation. - 1910.141 Scope. This section applies to permanent places of employment. 1910.141(c)(2)(i) Each water closet shall occupy a separate compartment with a door and walls or partitions between fixtures sufficiently high to assure privacy. ------------------------------- PUBLIC RESTROOM INDUSTRY ISSUES ------------------------------- http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/nyregion/04bathrooms.html Society’s Politics, as Seen Through a Porcelain Lens November 4, 2007 "A public toilet," Harvey Molotch was saying yesterday morning before the daylong symposium he organized on the subject, "is a window on the social and political world." It is indeed that, and much, much more, was the consensus among the 80 or so people who watched and took part in "Outing the Water Closet: Sex, Gender and the Public Toilet" at the Center for Architecture on LaGuardia Place in Greenwich Village, a public space run by the American Institute of Architects. For more than seven hours, a gathering of academics and architects, invited by Dr. Molotch, a sociology professor at New York University, scrutinized the public restroom’s radically unstable place at the intersection of the public and private spheres. === http://blogs.nyu.edu/projects/materialworld/2007/10/outing_the_water_closet.html OUTING THE WATER CLOSET: Sex, Gender, and the Public Toilet Free and open to the public 3 November 2007 === http://main.aiany.org/eOCULUS/newsletter/?p=1065 Architects Search for Public Relief By Rachel Schauer Event: OUTING THE WATER CLOSET: Sex, Gender, and the Public Toilet Location: Center for Architecture, 11.03.07 === http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1648349,00.html Fighting for the Right to Flush ... the dirty job of toilet advocacy falls entirely to volunteer groups, like the American Restroom Association (ARA), which represents the U.S. in the World Toilet Organization. === http://www.worldtoilet.org/index.asp World Toilet Organization (WTO) is a global non- profit organization committed to improving toilet and sanitation conditions worldwide. === http://www.americanrestroom.org/ The American Restroom Association advocates for the availability of clean, safe, well designed public restrooms. --- http://www.americanrestroom.org/code/index.htm RESTROOM PRIVACY SUPPORT While commodes are typically housed in stalls, urinals are not. Not all codes mandate privacy partitions between urinals. Some men find this unsettling for a number of reasons. A partition that is sufficiently high to block direct conversation can deter nefarious sexual advances ----------------------------- PUBLIC RESTROOMS LEGAL ISSUES ----------------------------- http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/05/2081379.htm?site=news Bathroom boffins bash 'toilet taboos' Nov 5, 2007 Sex scandal Public toilets in the United States typically have open seams in the partitions with big openings above and below - a feature that slid into sharp public view in September in a sex scandal involving US Senator Larry Craig. Craig resigned after pleading guilty in a sex sting in an airport bathroom. A policeman arrested him alleging that Craig invited a sexual encounter by sliding his foot and making signs under the toilet cubicle partition. An important question in toilet design is "how to balance surveillance with privacy," said Mr Molotch. "Should the system be organised to prevent men from having sex with each other?" === http://homelesslaw.wordpress.com/category/privacy/ Are there any legal limitations on what hygiene functions you can perform in a public restroom? === http://writ.lp.findlaw.com/colb/20050209.html Big Brother in the Bathroom: A Federal Court Puts the "Public" In "Public Restrooms" Wednesday, Feb. 09, 2005 In United States v. Hill, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit recently held that under some circumstances, there is no continuing Fourth Amendment right to privacy in a public restroom. This ruling is significant. It means that -- contrary to most people's expectations - closing the door to a public bathroom does not necessarily entitle a person to freedom from governmental snooping. === http://www.notbored.org/camera-abuses.html Abuses of surveillance cameras 25 September 2002, Ohio, USA: "Ohio man files $1.5M suit against Marriott: Hidden camera found in bathroom," by Randy Kenner, News-Sentinel staff writer. 11 July 2003, Atlanta, Georgia: Woman claims she was videotaped in Toys R Us restroom by the Associated Press. 6 August 2003, Wilton Manors, Florida: Man Sues Over Bathroom Cameras: Lawsuit Claims Cameras Violated His Rights
Comment by Researcher Roger Browne (eiffel) on Tue 1 Dec 2009 - 12:15 pm UTC:
In the 1980s I used to know someone who was responsible for the design of public toilets in public parks in a Sydney municipality. He told me that he had increased the height of the gap under the doors to reduce the "problem" of homeless people sheltering in the stalls overnight.
Comment by User myoarin on Tue 1 Dec 2009 - 7:24 pm UTC:
At a US men's university in the early 1960s, they added ca. ten inch panels to narrow the floor gaps between the stalls in the undergrad library. Until about forty years ago in Northern Europe, people were less uptight about privacy. Outdoors, if one couldn't directly see what they were doing, people "went": freeway rest areas, behind bus stop shelters, etc. One didn't look. Yes, women, too. An army mate and his wife were more than surprised to see that a woman at a rest area stooped and pulled down her skipants. (In Germany back then, a favorite school handicraft course project was a crocheted cover for a roll of toilet paper, often seen on the shelf of the rear window in cars.) Streetside urinals (men always have it easier) in France and the Netherlands made no pretensions of hiding who was doing what, and still don't in Amsterdam: http://blog.brillianttrips.com/wp-content/pissoir.jpg In an alley in Florence, there was a porcelian floor to chest high urinal on a wall. But now things are more "American", although perhaps not less unhygienic than the great out of doors.
Accepted and rated by whitecloudminnow on Wed 2 Dec 2009 - 12:51 am UTC:
Excellent answer, well researched and totally satisfactory. Thanks!
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Comment by User chides90 on Mon 30 Nov 2009 - 3:37 am UTC: