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ANSWERED on Mon 2 Aug 2010 - 5:22 am UTC by q21

Question: The Fabulous Baker Boys

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Sun 1 Aug 2010 - 7:59 am UTC

Question

probo
Customer

I bet that Myo’s eyes lit up when he saw the title, having immediately jumped to the conclusion that my question concerned the piano-playing duo whose act was transformed following the introduction of a gorgeous chanteuse, one Susie Diamond?

Sorry, Myo, but my question concerns the two real-life St Barbe Baker brothers: Richard (1889-1982) and Thomas Guillaume (1895-1951?). Both are listed in the 1901 UK Census when they were living in South Stoneham, Hampshire. They have now been immortalised by entries in the Wiki. However, in some archives, their surname appears as ‘Baker’ or ‘Barbe-Baker’.

Richard, a conservationist known as ‘The Man of the Trees’, gets many mentions in the TDA - The Times (of London) Digital Archive, including an Obituary. He also published his autobiography: ‘My Life, My Trees’ in which he reported that, sometime after WWI, ‘I went to Wiesbaden to join my younger brother Tom who had married an Austrian, a famous tennis player and linguist’.

Richard failed to mention the year but he reported that the British and French occupation armies were still there. Then the times were very bad and 250,000 marks were the equivalent of five pence in English currency.

Richard also reported that, when he returned to London, he found a summons waiting for him after his pet Serval (an African Tiger Cat) had attacked a fellow diner in the Café Royal. The incident occurred on 10 March 1923 and the case was reported on 10 November 1923. This suggests that Richard had met Tom between these dates and therefore that Tom had got married some time previously.

My question offers two alternatives:

1: Whom did Tom marry and when?

2: Where, when and how did Tom die? 

Wiki claims that he went to Jersey (The Channel Islands) which seems likely and then asserts that he committed suicide in 1951. However, the suicide and the date reported clearly refer to James Larratt Battersby, so no confidence can be placed in these latter claims.

(The only source quoted in Wiki is: Simpson, A.W.B. In the Highest Degree Odious: Detention Without Trial in Wartime Britain but this doesn’t help.)

A Researcher can Answer either alternative or both which would take us into Tip Territory. However, if one Researcher answers one part and another the other, then the second will be awarded his/her own Question.

Good Luck!

Probo

 
 

Sun 1 Aug 2010 - 3:41 pm UTC

Uclue Researcher Request for clarification

q21
Researcher

Probo,

Here are the results of my research so far. Please let me know concerning which details you would like to find further information.

1)
According to a previous version of the Wikipedia article on Thomas the name of his wife was Olive:
Revision as of 07:48, 5 August 2007:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Thomas_Guillaume_St._Barbe_Baker&action=historysubmit&diff=149306626&oldid=148930144
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Thomas_Guillaume_St._Barbe_Baker&oldid=149306626
and here, as well:
http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Thomas_Guillaume_St._Barbe_Baker

But this information (that Olive was name of Thomas’ wife) has since been corrected.
According to the "revision as of 17:08, 27 June 2010" the name of Thomas’ wife was not Olive, as clarified on this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Thomas_Guillaume_St._Barbe_Baker&action=historysubmit&diff=370443642&oldid=355112610
I suppose you will be able to look at the records mentioned (Kew)?

I did not find the birth of a son registered in 1939 - but the birth of a son registered in 1940 (Jan-Mar), and of two other sons after the war (in 1946 and 1947). The maiden name of the mother of all of these three sons was Skinner:
http://www.ancestry.co.uk/
This could be the wife of Thomas. However, it is not an Austrian name. Possibly Thomas married a second time.


2)

The death of a "St. Barbe-Baker, Thomas G." was registered in Brighton 1966 (Oct-Dec). He was 71 years old and, therefore, could be the person in question.

These details are not yet available on
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/
as you can see here:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/progressD.shtml#1950

But you’ll find this information on
http://www.ancestry.co.uk/
Do you have access to this website?

I suppose it would be easy for you to find further details of Thomas’ death as he died within the district of Brighton. But should you require further information I shall try to find it.

Regards,
q21

 

Sun 1 Aug 2010 - 4:25 pm UTC

Question clarification

probo
Customer

Brilliant, Q21, Very Many Thanks. I much appreciate your having got on the case.

I have seen St B B's files in The National Archives and I've also got a copy of his son's Birth Certificate. He was born in November 1939, although his birth wasn't registered until 2 Jan 1940.

His other two children are news to me!

The mother of #1 son was indeed Muriel St B B (nee Skinner) but, evidently, he had been previously married to an Austrian tennis player and linguist in the early Twenties. Maybe she was a Flapper or a Jazz Baby?

However, a friend has now pointed out that an "Austrian" back then might now be considered Hungarian or Czech. And, of course, they could have married anywhere, Probably an impossible quest - even for you.

I suspect that the deleted Wiki reference to Olive was the proper correction a mistake, as there was an Olive Baker who was otherwise well known in certain circles pre-WWII.

Yes, I do have access to Ancestry and I'll happily accept that he popped off in Brighton, as you have reported. A lot of rascals finish up in these parts.

I now consider that both my Questions are fully answered, so please proceed to an AnswerFound!

All the Best

Bryan

 

Mon 2 Aug 2010 - 5:22 am UTC

Uclue Researcher Answer

q21
Researcher

Probo,

Thank you very much for accepting the results of my research as an answer.

I continued trying to find some information on Thomas’ first marriage, but without success. His first wife could indeed have come from any place within the former Austrian-Hungarian Empire.

I would like to add that on <Ancestry.com> searching for "Barbe Baker" and "Barbe-Baker" will not lead to identical results. Including a hyphen or not does make a difference.

Buy the way, you’ll find Thomas’ birth when searching for "Thomas Guillaume Baker" and his father’s marriage when searching for "John Richard St B Baker":
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/

Regards,
q21

 
 

Mon 2 Aug 2010 - 7:44 am UTC

Accepted and rated

probo
Customer

Again, very many thanks Q21

Here in Brighton & Hove we name our buses after famous former residents:

http://history.buses.co.uk/history/fleethist/busnamesintro.htm

So, on your next visit, please take a ride through our City on the outcome of your excellent research.

Bryan

Pity about the Wiki entry, it also contains LOTS of other errors but making corrections is no longer my cup of tea, after some idiot dismissed my research on Dr Crippen:

http://drcrippen.co.uk/index.html

 

Mon 2 Aug 2010 - 11:21 am UTC

Uclue Researcher Comment

q21
Researcher

Thank you very much, Bryan, for your kind rating, your tip ... and for your recommendation to visit Brighton!

q21

 

Mon 2 Aug 2010 - 6:55 pm UTC

Uclue Researcher Comment

mathtalk
Researcher

Probo wrote:

> Here in Brighton & Hove we name our buses after famous former residents

Ah, that sounds so much more civilized than the practice on this side of the pond, where famous former residents are thrown under the buses...

regards, mt

 

Mon 2 Aug 2010 - 8:00 pm UTC

Comment

myoarin
User

Hmm?  Lends a new meaning to abused ...

 

Tue 3 Aug 2010 - 6:42 am UTC

Comment

probo
Customer

Many thanks MT for chipping in.

Also, Myo, I hear that you are again in Las Vegas strutting your Elvis stuff.

Good Luck to you both!

Probo

 

Tue 3 Aug 2010 - 8:12 am UTC

Comment

myoarin
User

No, I'm still at home, but my eyes did light up when I saw your question, but it was unfortunately too serious for me.  I did discover The Fabulous Baker Boys, however, and had the treat of a video of Michelle Pfeiffer singing Making Whoopee.

 

Tue 3 Aug 2010 - 12:37 pm UTC

Uclue Researcher Comment

q21
Researcher

Bryan,

I just came across these remarks concerning Wikipedia:
http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2010/08/epistemic-egalitarianism.html

You might find the view pronounced rather interesting.

The entire interview can be found here:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/thewrongstuff/

Regards,
q21

 

Tue 3 Aug 2010 - 3:42 pm UTC

Comment

probo
Customer

Many thanks, Q21, for the Wiki links.

Wicked!

Bryan

 

Wed 4 Aug 2010 - 5:13 am UTC

Comment

probo
Customer

Small world!

After searching a fairly recent Database of UK residents, I have discovered a possible widow of Tom listed in a small village in Somerset.

It's a place I know because a very good friend of mine used to live there and I have stayed with him on occasions.

So, I have contacted him and I now await his news. 

Bryan

 

Wed 4 Aug 2010 - 10:26 am UTC

Comment

myoarin
User

re Q21's very interesting links about Snage and "Epistemic Egalitarianism":

from Hobbes' "The Leviathan":

"For such is the nature of man, that howsoever they may acknowledge many others to be more witty, or more eloquent, or more learned; yet they will hardly believe there be many so wise as themselves:  for they see their own wit at hand, and other men's at a distance.  But this proveth rather that men are in that point equal, than unequal.  For there is not ordinarily a greater sign of the equal distribution of anything, that that every man is contented with his share."

 

Wed 4 Aug 2010 - 11:29 am UTC

Comment

probo
Customer

Thanks, Myo, poor Hobbes got it wrong, as usual.

We all bow to your superior wit and wisdom, even though for most of us we only see it in cyberspace.

Bryo

 

Wed 4 Aug 2010 - 12:18 pm UTC

Comment

myoarin
User

I hope not!  It's all borrowed feathers  - like this: 

"The next best thing to knowing something is knowing where to find it."
      http://www.samueljohnson.com/apocryph.html

Which could be a byline for Uclue.

 

Mon 1 Nov 2010 - 11:14 am UTC

Comment

baker
User

I believe i am related to thomas and richard, are you compiling a family tree? would love some more information can you help?

 

Mon 1 Nov 2010 - 12:18 pm UTC

Comment

probo
Customer

Hello Mr Baker

Nice to hear from you!

No, I'm not compiling a Family Tree but I have gathered quite a lot of information on The Fabulous Baker Boys and Thomas Guillaume in particular.

This is in connection with a book that I am preparing on various people who were interned on the Isle of Man during WWII, a fate that happened to Thomas StB B.

I never discovered who his first wife was but I am willing to share other facts that I have uncovered if you would like to contact me through:

http://www.statesecrets.co.uk/

All the Best

Bryan

 

Tue 2 Nov 2010 - 1:13 pm UTC

Comment

baker
User

Thank you for responding we will be in touch soon...im assuming contact through that website

 

Tue 2 Nov 2010 - 2:39 pm UTC

Comment

probo
Customer

Yes, please, through the website.

Looking forward!

Bryan

 

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