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ANSWERED on Thu 28 Feb 2013 - 1:13 pm UTC by Phil Answerfinder

Question: Rosa dei Venti in Museo Galileo

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brudenell 

Customer

 26 Feb 2013 19:49 UTCTue 26 Feb 2013 - 7:49 pm UTC 

I seek the background story about this compass rose in the Galileo museum in Florence, Italy:

http://catalogo.museogalileo.it/galleria/RosaVenti.html

What can you tell me about it?

Thank you

.

 

q21 

Researcher

 26 Feb 2013 20:45 UTCTue 26 Feb 2013 - 8:45 pm UTC 

brudenell,

Presumably, you have already seen this background note:
http://catalogue.museogalileo.it/indepth/Windrose.html

I'll try to find more.

Regards,
q21

 

q21 

Researcher

 26 Feb 2013 21:10 UTCTue 26 Feb 2013 - 9:10 pm UTC 

brudenell,

Here are some similar looking windroses in the "Catalogue of the Museo Galileio's instruments on display" (November 2012):
http://video.museogalileo.it/cat/download/MuseoGalileoCatalogue.pdf

pdf-page 35
Horizontal dial [Inv. 134] page (catalogue) 33

pdf-page 38:
Horizontal dial (incomplete) [Inv. 2466] page 36

pdf-page 377:
Anemoscope [Inv. 848] page 375

Regards,
q21

 

brudenell 

Customer

 26 Feb 2013 22:40 UTCTue 26 Feb 2013 - 10:40 pm UTC 

Thank you q21 for your information. I am looking for specific information on the compass rose image itself. I appreciate your searching.

 

David Sarokin 

Researcher

 26 Feb 2013 22:53 UTCTue 26 Feb 2013 - 10:53 pm UTC 

brudenell,

I'm not sure exactly what you're after here.

Wind roses like the one you linked to were the predecessors of magnetic compasses, and were used as a means of indicating the directions of the main winds. You can see a write-up in the History section of this Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_rose


The rose has four main quadrants, as indicated on your diagram by the inner circle of numbers, which divide each quadrant into degrees, from 0 to 90.

In addition to the four major directions/winds, the roses were typically subdivided to represent lesser winds, typically 8 or 16, but sometimes up to 32, as indicated by the outer circle of numbers on your wind rose.

The fleur de lis in the North is also traditional, as Wikipedia notes.

You can see another 32-wind rose on page 394 of the museum catalog that Q21 linked you to:

http://video.museogalileo.it/cat/download/MuseoGalileoCatalogue.pdf

Is that the sort of back story you're looking for?

David

 

myoarin 

User

 27 Feb 2013 00:30 UTCWed 27 Feb 2013 - 12:30 am UTC 

Hi Brudenell,

As the links from Q21 and David show, the compass rose you ask about is not at all unique or original.  Quite similar roses appeared much earlier.

This is a link to website under reference 2 of the Wikipedia article:
http://www.gisnet.com/notebook/comprose.php

Here is one on a map from 1375:
http://ancientworldmaps.blogspot.de/search/label/14th%20century

Click on the map for an enlargement, again on the left thumbnail at the bottom.

My explanation for wind roses would be that they evolved with the expansion of navigation and the beginning of the convention to orient maps with north at the top.  On land, the finer definition of compass and wind directions was unnecessary.
Someone must have written a thesis on the type of wind rose you ask about, surviving with little change for centuries.  This suggests that it was and is ideal for representing the division of a circle in 16 or 32 sectors in a way that is easiest for the eye to recognize.

Thanks for the link to the museum catalogue.

Myo

 

brudenell 

Customer

 27 Feb 2013 00:34 UTCWed 27 Feb 2013 - 12:34 am UTC 

Hello David

Thank you for your information and for searching this question. I am actually trying to find out specifically about the wind rose in the Galileo museum as shown in the image. Who drew it and at what location? Is it a painting? Where is the image currently located for viewing? This is what I seek.

 

q21 

Researcher

 27 Feb 2013 06:58 UTCWed 27 Feb 2013 - 6:58 am UTC 

brudenell,

This appears to be the same picture:
http://www.istockphoto.com/stock-photo-15952826-compass-rose-on-golden-paper.php
and
http://www.istockphoto.com/stock-photo-15952870-compass-rose-on-old-paper.php

According to the description it is a "Compass Rose taken from a old map (17th century)".

It is also displayed at the beginning of the music video "Elephant Gun":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5aFW_1TVOM

But I still have no idea where the image is currently located for viewing.

Regards,
q21

 

brudenell 

Customer

 27 Feb 2013 10:33 UTCWed 27 Feb 2013 - 10:33 am UTC 

Good morning q21

Thank you for the links.

The reason I seek the location is that I have a friend currently in Florence and he went to the Galileo museum on my behalf seeking the image as it is in their online gallery. Once physically located in the building it was anticipated there would be information nearby. A walk through the museum failed to locate the compass rose but that doesn't mean it wasn't there. Museums have a great way of sometimes confusing visitors... or maybe it is not on display. I reviewed the museum catalogue (quite an exhaustive and well put together document) and I did not find it.

The challenge remains.

I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to look for this elusive image.

B

.

 

Phil Answerfinder 

Researcher

 27 Feb 2013 11:02 UTCWed 27 Feb 2013 - 11:02 am UTC 

This is a partial answer only. I have identified the book where this Wind Rose comes from, but there are 594 maps and plates to go through to find on which it appears.

The image is on one of the maps and prints which were published as part of the Atlas Maior, Sive Cosmographia Blaviana. Latin edition published in Amsterdam. See this Wikipedia page for detailed information this publication and earlier publications in which it may appear.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Maior

There are a few websites which confirm this as the source. There is a poster of it for sale on a Spanish website which has additional text with it.

Google translated version
Rosa Joan Blaeu wind with the 32 winds of the world, the "Atlas Maior, Sive Cosmographia Blaviana", 1662 located in a private collection. Joan Blaeu was German artist. The wind rose to 32 winds of the world, the "Atlas Maior, Sive Cosmographia Blaviana", 1662 was created around 1662 AD.

Original Spanish text:
El rosa de viento con los 32 vientos del mundo, del "atlas Maior, Sive Cosmographia Blaviana", 1662 era hacia 1662 ANUNCIO creado.
http://www.zazzle.es/rosa_de_viento_con_los_32_vientos_del_mundo_poster-228190512400720258

Also at the Bookman Art Library
http://www.bridgemanart.com/asset/366575/Blaeu-Joan-1596-1673/Wind-rose-with-the-32-winds-ofthe-world-from-the-?search_context=%7B%22url%22%3A%22%5C%2Fsearch.aspx%3Fkey%3Dcompass%2520rose%26filter%3DCBPOIHV%26sl%3Dgb%22%2C%22filter%22%3A%7B%22filter_text%22%3A%22compass+rose%22%2C%22filter_searchoption_id%22%3A%224%22%2C%22filter_assetstatus_id%22%3A1%2C%22filter_prev_text%22%3A%22compass+rose%22%7D%2C%22num_results%22%3A%2256%22%2C%22sort_order%22%3A%22best_relevance%22%2C%22search_type%22%3A%22search_assets%22%2C%22item_index%22%3A2%7D

You will see in the Wikipedia article that there are modern reproductions available. The original publication will probably found in a national library or museum.

Online, digital images of the earlier versions can be found on those links shown on Wikipedia. The best of which seems to be
http://www.archiefleiden.nl/home/collecties/verhalen/bladeren-door-blaeu/blaeu
But does not display well on my ipad (I'm not near at PC)

I'm sorry this a partial answer but I am restricted mainly by the ipad capabilities. Perhaps someone can spot the page it appears on. I will have access to a PC perhaps by the week-end.

Phil
answerfinder

 

Phil Answerfinder 

Researcher

 27 Feb 2013 11:06 UTCWed 27 Feb 2013 - 11:06 am UTC 

I notice that the rose is a different colour. Perhaps the answer for this is because of the various different publications and versions.

 

Phil Answerfinder 

Researcher

 27 Feb 2013 12:31 UTCWed 27 Feb 2013 - 12:31 pm UTC 

There's another version on Flickr. Slightly different colouring used.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/87332843@N00/2381398280/

 

q21 

Researcher

 27 Feb 2013 13:29 UTCWed 27 Feb 2013 - 1:29 pm UTC 

The Dutch language edition of "Blaeus grooten atlas" (1665) presents the names of the 32 winds on a slightly different page:
http://objects.library.uu.nl/reader/index.php?obj=1874-241046&lan=en#page//16/14/97/161497630776173011661729008501296376108.jpg/mode/1up

In Phil's link above
http://www.archiefleiden.nl/home/collecties/verhalen/bladeren-door-blaeu/blaeu

the equivalent picture would be on page "10 van 285".

Possibly, the image in question was published only in the Latin language edition (Atlas Maior).

 

myoarin 

User

 27 Feb 2013 13:31 UTCWed 27 Feb 2013 - 1:31 pm UTC 

Apologies for second guessing the above comments.  After some clicking back and forth between tabs:

The image from the Bookman Art Library is extremely similar, but the fleur de lis is red, not blue like the one from the museum catalogue, plus some finer differences in the colors at the circumference.

The colors at the circumference of the image from stockphoto and the video also differ from catalogue image, ditto for the flickr image.

That image is copyrighted by the museum, suggesting that the original is owned by the museum.  It appears not to be excerpted from a map, rather to be someone's (Galileo's?) "bravura" drawing of a wind rose with more decorative color details than a mapmaker would use.
 
(I am intrigued by the numbering of the 32 compass points starting with East, also to discover that Italian has unique names for the half-winds.)

I can imagine that the wind rose would not be displayed in the exhibition of so many instruments.  It would be overlooked.  The museum would probably not want to expose it to light.

Brudenell, you are right that museums can be reluctant show things from their depots, especially when they can argue that it is well shown in the catalogue.

It sure seems, however, that the museum's wind rose either inspired others, or was a finer development of what already existed.

Which is no help at all.

Myo

 

David Sarokin 

Researcher

 27 Feb 2013 13:37 UTCWed 27 Feb 2013 - 1:37 pm UTC 

I have to say, Phil, even with all myo's cogent caveats, that was some darned fine researchin'...

David

 

q21 

Researcher

 27 Feb 2013 13:56 UTCWed 27 Feb 2013 - 1:56 pm UTC 

The Taschen edition of Atlas Maior appears to be a reprint of the Latin edition:
http://www.taschen.com/pages/en/catalogue/classics/all/44808/facts.blaeu_atlas_maior.htm

 

q21 

Researcher

 27 Feb 2013 14:04 UTCWed 27 Feb 2013 - 2:04 pm UTC 

Should the Museo Galileo have a copy of Atlas Maior among its collection then this would probably be mentioned in the respective biographical articles (which is not the case):
http://catalogue.museogalileo.it/biography/JoanBlaeu.html

and
http://catalogue.museogalileo.it/biography/WillemJanszBlaeu.html

 

myoarin 

User

 27 Feb 2013 16:00 UTCWed 27 Feb 2013 - 4:00 pm UTC 

I forgot to say what David did!  Don't know how Phil did it, but that is the difference between peanuts as researchers.

I suspect that the image is between unchlorinated tissue in a folder that just identifies the anonymous items in it.

Myo

 

brudenell 

Customer

 27 Feb 2013 17:02 UTCWed 27 Feb 2013 - 5:02 pm UTC 

Phil - how did you do this? Great work even if we are only part way to the answer. You Researchers and the occasional peanut amaze me. Love your work!
Thank you.

 

brudenell 

Customer

 27 Feb 2013 17:02 UTCWed 27 Feb 2013 - 5:02 pm UTC 

Myo my apologies for not spotting your first comment. It appears you and I were writing (me on my tiny screen iPhone) around the same time 27 Feb 2013 - 12:34 am UTC and I missed your post. I appreciate your investigations. Thank you for giving this quest a go.

 

brudenell 

Customer

 27 Feb 2013 17:02 UTCWed 27 Feb 2013 - 5:02 pm UTC 

Q21, David, Answerfinder and Myo... what a brain trust ... all in a quest to find where the folks in the Galileo museum have stashed this particular Rosa dei Venti. Maybe, as Myo has pointed out the museum owns the copyright, the image is elsewhere. And as seen so many times before, a simple question can lead down so many unexpected paths. Thank you all for this fascinating information.

 

David Sarokin 

Researcher

 27 Feb 2013 17:12 UTCWed 27 Feb 2013 - 5:12 pm UTC 

If the wind rose is, in fact, from the Atlas Maior -- or some similar source -- then thousands of copies of the book were printed. I imagine many of them survive today and can be found in numerous collections. No one entity owns the copyright to the original image, though they may have a legit claim to a particular photo of a page that they've published.

David

 

Phil Answerfinder 

Researcher

 27 Feb 2013 18:43 UTCWed 27 Feb 2013 - 6:43 pm UTC 

I am frustrated that I only have access to an ipad at the moment. It does restrict me in my research.

It seems to me that there would be a natural variation of colours in these prints. Each would have been hand-coloured at the time of production probably by different hands. Would there have been a sctrict control of colours? Or would each painter be allowed to use their own artistic approah to the task? We can only guess.

Secondly, in the past two centuries many of these types of books have been ripped apart and the text thrown away. The prints and maps the framed or put in albums. Perhaps this has been the fate of the subject image.

How did I do it? Used a reverse image search engine, the results of which gave me sufficient clues to narrow it down to the above.

 

myoarin 

User

 27 Feb 2013 22:08 UTCWed 27 Feb 2013 - 10:08 pm UTC 

Respect, Phil! 

No one, of course, had a copyright on the wind rose back then, and evidently this was a popular, up-market version.  The circumference of the one in the catalogue is more elaborate than that of those so similar ones the links.

They are all equally attractive, only the direct comparison (click, click) allows one to identify differences. 

Maybe the museum would respond, if this discussion were presented to justify a broader interest in the object.

Myo

 

Phil Answerfinder 

Researcher

 28 Feb 2013 09:49 UTCThu 28 Feb 2013 - 9:49 am UTC 

I have sent an email to the musuem requesting the information. I hope that they will respond.

Phil
answerfinder

 

q21 

Researcher

 28 Feb 2013 10:42 UTCThu 28 Feb 2013 - 10:42 am UTC 

The table of contents of the 2010 Taschen edition:
http://d-nb.info/1008189936/04

I shall try to find out if the wind rose, too, was reproduced.

 

Phil Answerfinder 

Answer

 28 Feb 2013 13:13 UTCThu 28 Feb 2013 - 1:13 pm UTC 

Brudenell,

I am pleased to say the museum has kindly replied to my inquiry. I quote from their reply.

"... this image was taken from the following book (that is in our collection):

Blaeu, Willem Janszoon, 1571-1638
Le grand atlas, ou, Cosmographie Blaviane [Materiale cartografico] : en
laquelle est exactement descripte la Terre, la mer et le ciel. A Amsterdam
: chez Jean Blaeu, 1667.

The name of this illustration is: Table contenant les noms des XXXII vents."

So this is the French edition published two years after the Latin version. I have found a digital version on
http://digital.tcl.sc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/blaeu/id/308/rec/6
See page 41 for one image of the Windrose. There may others but I struggling with my ipad.

The colouring is different. However, I still stick to my suggestion that hand colouring of the prints would vary from book to book, edition to edition. These books, afterall, were very expensive and almost made to order for prestigious clients.

I hope this answers your question.

Phil
answerfinder

 

brudenell 

Customer

 28 Feb 2013 13:24 UTCThu 28 Feb 2013 - 1:24 pm UTC 

So it was in the museum! Excellent work Answerfinder. I appreciate your perseverance to get to the answer. Thank you very much.

 

Phil Answerfinder 

Researcher

 28 Feb 2013 13:35 UTCThu 28 Feb 2013 - 1:35 pm UTC 

Thank you for the tip. Pleased we got there in the end.
Phil
answerfinder

 

myoarin 

User

 1 Mar 2013 00:25 UTCFri 1 Mar 2013 - 12:25 am UTC 

Congratulations, Phil!

Great advertisement for your ipad.

Myo

 

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